On the crisis of Design Thinking, the fear of the algorithmic “black box,” and why technology will never replace authentic presence. Barry Katz, Professor at the California College of the Arts, Stanford lecturer, and IDEO Fellow, in conversation with Dr Monika Sońta and Prof. Rafał Mrówka.
The interview took place in Silicon Valley during the “Top 1000 Innovators of Poland in Silicon Valley” event, part of the ScalePL initiative funded by the Polish Ministry of Science and Higher Education. Dr Monika Sońta was one of the representatives of Kozminski University.
Design Thinking: From Philosophy to Rigid Method
Monika Sońta: We are meeting in California to talk about creativity in the “age of design.” Let us start with a topic that has recently stirred a lot of controversy: Design Thinking. More and more voices are saying “rest in peace.” Do you agree that this formula has run its course and become too provisional or superficial?
Barry Katz: I was deeply involved in shaping Design Thinking as a process and a methodology. Its origins are closely tied to Stanford and IDEO, and I was right at the center of those developments. Together with Tim Brown, we wrote a book that, for better or worse, brought Design Thinking to the attention of the business world.
Looking back after twenty years, I see that Design Thinking has shifted from what I intended it to be, essentially a philosophy, toward a rigid methodology. Today, there are thousands of workshops and certificates promising that if you follow steps A, B, and C, you will end up with something like an iPhone.
It has become overly codified and inflexible. I think that is precisely why it has lost much of its appeal. It promised more than it was ever able to deliver.
Monika Sońta: So what comes next? Is “Future Thinking” the new framework?
Barry Katz: I am not sure. The core of Design Thinking, deep user research and prototyping, is still valid. What we lack are broader systemic frameworks, what we might call Systems Design. As for “Future Thinking,” I have always been skeptical. The future cannot be predicted. The best we can do is prepare for possible scenarios, so we are not shocked when change arrives.
The Psychology of Risk
Rafał Mrówka: During today’s panel, you said that we cannot simply wait for luck. We have to create the conditions for it. How should we understand this in the context of leadership?
Barry Katz: Luck itself cannot be measured, but we can study people who consider themselves lucky. If you subjectively see yourself that way, you are more willing to take risks. In leadership, identifying people with this disposition is crucial, because without risk there is no success.
Rafał Mrówka: In design schools, students are taught the principle “fail often and fail fast.” Is this a good lesson in taking risks?
Barry Katz: We prefer to say “fail early in order to succeed faster.” This is not about celebrating mistakes, but about valuing people who have learned from them. A great example is the story of Hasso Plattner, the founder of SAP. When he donated enormous funds to establish the d.school at Stanford, a German newspaper asked him why he was supporting an American university instead of a German one. He replied: “If I gave the money to a German university, I would know exactly what I would get. By giving it to these guys, I have no idea what will come out of it.” That is the kind of openness to the unknown we are talking about.
That said, I have to admit that the design community sometimes suffers from what we call in the United States “drinking your own Kool-Aid.” We tell the same stories so often that we start to believe them uncritically ourselves.
AI and Creativity Inside the “Black Box”
Rafał Mrówka: In the age of AI, can we still meaningfully distinguish between algorithmic and artistic creativity?
Barry Katz: I am skeptical about that distinction. I think we are moving toward the blurring of those boundaries.
We are facing the prospect that AI itself may become an autonomous creative force. As Garri Kasparov once said, it is not about machines versus humans, but about learning how to collaborate in ways that respect both kinds of intelligence.
Every new technology gives rise to a new design discipline. Industrial design emerged with mass production. More recently, Interaction Design has taught us how to interact creatively with technical artifacts. That is where much of the future lies.
Rafał Mrówka: What do you see as the greatest dangers in this process?
Barry Katz: What worries me most is that no one really knows what is happening inside a large language model. We see the input and the output, but the process in between remains a mystery. Relying on results whose origins we do not understand is frightening. It is frightening when I get into an autonomous Waymo car, and it is equally frightening in creative work, when a system produces convincing but not necessarily true content.
Monika Sońta: This is also a challenge for education. Is AI a convenience for students, or a trap?
Barry Katz: As a teacher, I see a huge risk of shortcuts. Wikipedia, and now ChatGPT, have become very easy substitutes for original thinking. I genuinely wonder whether students will ever again read Homer, Dante, or Hegel if they can get a beautifully written summary in seconds. Education is probably the field most strongly affected by AI today. I receive student work and I do not know how much of it comes from the student and how much from the tool in their hands.
What Remains Irreplaceable
Monika Sońta: So what do we, as humans, still possess that no algorithm can ever replace?
Barry Katz: What we are doing right now: sitting in the same room and reading each other’s emotions and facial expressions. This authentic ability to respond to people in our immediate surroundings.
An AI that appears sensitive or emotionally engaged is like an actor on a stage. A great actor can make you cry, but it is still a performance. An algorithm can simulate anger, jealousy, or passion, but it is not the real thing. What is happening between us here is real.
Monika Sońta, Rafał Mrówka: Thank you for the conversation.
Barry Katz: Thank you as well. I am in the process of withdrawing from institutions and moving into retirement, although I have to admit I have never been busier than I am now. This has been a fascinating discussion.
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Barry Katz is one of the most influential scholars and commentators on design thinking and innovation-driven strategy. He was educated at McGill University in Montreal and the London School of Economics, and holds a PhD from the University of California at Santa Cruz.
He is Emeritus Professor of Industrial and Interaction Design at the California College of the Arts in San Francisco and previously served as Adjunct Professor in the Design Group at Stanford University’s Department of Mechanical Engineering. For more than twenty years, he worked with IDEO, the world’s leading design and innovation consultancy, where he became an IDEO Fellow. He continues to advise governments, companies, and academic institutions around the world.
Barry Katz is the author of eight books, and his writing on design as a strategy for innovation has appeared in numerous academic, professional, and popular publications. His current work focuses on postwar reconstruction in Ukraine, the post-pandemic workplace in Silicon Valley, and the development of the M.Des. program at the University of California, Berkeley.
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Dr Monika Sońta holds a PhD in social sciences. She is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Management in Network Society at Kozminski University and a lecturer in the postgraduate Employer Branding programme. Her research interests include organizational communication and employee engagement, creativity in organizations, building organizational climates that support diversity and inclusion, and quality of working life. She has completed a number of professional and academic courses, including the MIT programme Artificial Intelligence: Implications for Business Strategy (2021), postgraduate studies in advertising psychology (2009), and postgraduate studies in talent management and knowledge management in organizations (2012). She has participated in numerous academic conferences and seminars. She is the author of several academic publications, including Sońta, M. and Magala, S. (2020), “What You Create Is What You Learn”, International Journal of Management and Applied Research, Vol. 7, No. 3, pp. 293–307.
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Dr hab. Rafał Mrówka is an Associate Professor at the Department of Management Theory at SGH Warsaw School of Economics. He specialises in the analysis of modern organisational models, digital transformation, leadership, corporate social responsibility, and employee satisfaction and engagement surveys. He is also the Director of the MBA-SGH and MBA for Startups Programmes at SGH. He has lectured and participated in research programmes at Tel Aviv University (Israel), Université Catholique de Lille (France), MDI Gurgaon (India), the University of Mauritius, and the University of Muhammadiyah Malang (Indonesia). Rafał Mrówka is also active in business consulting and executive training; he has over 25 years of experience managing business projects and is a co-owner of the consulting and training company IMMOQEE. He is a member of the Advisory Board of the School for Leaders Foundation, which promotes and develops leadership attitudes in Polish society.
